Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
BridgeMaster9000

Team SC VS Team NC

Recommended Posts

22 minutes ago, SCESPO said:

Hijacking the thread back from attacking high school kids................The only way I could see guaranteeing wrestlers take  the event more seriously would be have it during the preseason before the wrestlers even compete during their senior year.  

In theory the pre season idea sounds great to me, but the logistics would be almost insurmountable and also it then wouldn't be tied to the North South All stars which I feel is important.  Just random thought of the day.  

Coach,  if it were moved to the preseason,  would you propose best team of seniors or best team?

 If it’s tied to the North/South event, it makes sense to make the event, seniors only. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know.  I know I would definitely exclude Freshman.  Off the top of my head I'm leaning towards Junior and Seniors.  But honestly haven't thought about it enough.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But how would they be ready to go? Remember there is a closed season leading up to the start of the season, and upper weights playing football would not be able to participate. Has to be after season - if anything two weeks after the state tournament. But then you will run into weight issues and conditioning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Guest Yankee said:

Oh yeah your son is the one that called injury time when he was on his back in the finals. And started whining when the other kid was hand fighting with him.

Anonymous keyboard warrior...yes my son is the kid that cut zero pounds this year and won the state title in SC 5A 145.  In fact he lost one match in SC by decision to Maholz, who is a very tough and impressive wrestler, and he won 52 matches while allowing maybe 12 points all year, in a pretty damn tough schedule across GA, SC, NC, and VA.   I am very proud of him wrestling within the rules all year and using technique to dominate his opponents.  Meanwhile other kids cut 20 or so pounds and tried to "rough him up" with "tough hand fighting", i.e illegal punches to the head that the ref called immediately in the finals (last I checked my son is not the ref, but hey blame the ref for calling flagrant fouls right?). 

When my son was turned by Schock in the finals, his shoulder actually came out.  This has happened several times this year, mostly in practice, and mostly when he was winning matches by more than 12 points.  If you're interested, go watch his match on trackwrestling at VA Beach Duals where he down blocks a kid he is beating by 12-0 and his shoulder comes out.  In that match he calls injury time, slips it back in, and then finishes tech falling the kid.  Against Schock, when he ran the arm bar over the top (and many refs would have stopped that and called potentially dangerous but I ain't complaining) my son immediately called injury time due to his shoulder coming out.  He took a minute or so to slip it back in, and then proceeded to win a tough fought decision.  Bottom line is that my son won the state title following the rules, he never punched anyone, never hurt anyone, never hit anyone, never was flagged for unsportsmanlike or flagrant fouls, and he never cried about refs bad calls after matches.  Hell, if you actually watched him, he hardly even celebrated when he won any matches, or even won the state title for that matter, he just wrestled and shook hands. 

I actually feel somewhat bad for the Woodmont kids who needlessly cut a lot of weight this year, when they would have done just fine at 152 and 160 in SC.  Ironically, they may have actually won states titles and performed better overall at 145, 152, and 160 if they just stayed put.  Meanwhile, in the actual dual between Woodmont and Lexington about a month prior to the state tournament, when Schock was ranked #2 and Chance was ranked #3, the Woodmont coach chose not to wrestle Schock against my son at 145 head to head, and instead bumped up Joan Martinez, who was at the time ranked time ranked top 4 at 138 and had just cut down from 145.  My son promptly beat him by TF 16-0, and Lexington went on to win the dual in an upset.  My best guess is the coach had those kids cut weight this year, and it did not work out well.  Now, many Woodmont folks are really upset.  Nothing stings more than losing after cutting 20 pounds.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chance was without a doubt one of my favorite guys to watch wrestle this year.  He was a true 145 and is a technician. 

Kid earned the state title and was one of only two kids to get a win over Team NC.  

The point of this thread is how to improve wrestling in SC.  How we improve is to get more kids like Chance K.   Learn the sport, be a technician and maximize your strength.   

Winning is very important, but as we build the sport in SC we need more kids wrestling and kids will wrestle because it is fun.    It has to be a balance     A kid should never laugh as he is getting pinned. He needs to be mad and use it to get better.   But nothing makes me prouder as a dad than watching my kid laugh with his teammates, encouraging the teammate that just lost or even talking to the kid he just wrestled.

Wrestling is the toughest, most humbling sport in the world.  If we take all the fun out of it, why would any kid want to do it?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Yankee
4 hours ago, CarlK said:

Anonymous keyboard warrior...yes my son is the kid that cut zero pounds this year and won the state title in SC 5A 145.  In fact he lost one match in SC by decision to Maholz, who is a very tough and impressive wrestler, and he won 52 matches while allowing maybe 12 points all year, in a pretty damn tough schedule across GA, SC, NC, and VA.   I am very proud of him wrestling within the rules all year and using technique to dominate his opponents.  Meanwhile other kids cut 20 or so pounds and tried to "rough him up" with "tough hand fighting", i.e illegal punches to the head that the ref called immediately in the finals (last I checked my son is not the ref, but hey blame the ref for calling flagrant fouls right?). 

When my son was turned by Schock in the finals, his shoulder actually came out.  This has happened several times this year, mostly in practice, and mostly when he was winning matches by more than 12 points.  If you're interested, go watch his match on trackwrestling at VA Beach Duals where he down blocks a kid he is beating by 12-0 and his shoulder comes out.  In that match he calls injury time, slips it back in, and then finishes tech falling the kid.  Against Schock, when he ran the arm bar over the top (and many refs would have stopped that and called potentially dangerous but I ain't complaining) my son immediately called injury time due to his shoulder coming out.  He took a minute or so to slip it back in, and then proceeded to win a tough fought decision.  Bottom line is that my son won the state title following the rules, he never punched anyone, never hurt anyone, never hit anyone, never was flagged for unsportsmanlike or flagrant fouls, and he never cried about refs bad calls after matches.  Hell, if you actually watched him, he hardly even celebrated when he won any matches, or even won the state title for that matter, he just wrestled and shook hands. 

I actually feel somewhat bad for the Woodmont kids who needlessly cut a lot of weight this year, when they would have done just fine at 152 and 160 in SC.  Ironically, they may have actually won states titles and performed better overall at 145, 152, and 160 if they just stayed put.  Meanwhile, in the actual dual between Woodmont and Lexington about a month prior to the state tournament, when Schock was ranked #2 and Chance was ranked #3, the Woodmont coach chose not to wrestle Schock against my son at 145 head to head, and instead bumped up Joan Martinez, who was at the time ranked time ranked top 4 at 138 and had just cut down from 145.  My son promptly beat him by TF 16-0, and Lexington went on to win the dual in an upset.  My best guess is the coach had those kids cut weight this year, and it did not work out well.  Now, many Woodmont folks are really upset.  Nothing stings more than losing after cutting 20 pounds.  

You ever watch Alex Marinelli wrestle I think he "roughs people up" alot harder than any highschool kid could and I don't see people complaining about him "punching people in the back of the head" know why because it's not aginst the rules to be physical and mean. Just my thoughts. And why was he not wearing a shoulder brace if he had problems with his shoulder popping out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Guest Yankee said:

You ever watch Alex Marinelli wrestle I think he "roughs people up" alot harder than any highschool kid could and I don't see people complaining about him "punching people in the back of the head" know why because it's not aginst the rules to be physical and mean. Just my thoughts. And why was he not wearing a shoulder brace if he had problems with his shoulder popping out?

I'll play along and we can get into the Brands style vs the Sanderson style vs the Eierman style vs the John Smith style all day long.  I watch a lot of college wrestling and personally, I prefer the guys that go out and wrestle technically, create fast paced action, and continuously score points. At the end of the day scoring points is what it's all about.  Marinelli's style is not suited for everyone, and I personally find it boring to watch.  BTW - If you think Marinelli has never been hit with a penalty or a warning for slapping people in the head or face your kidding yourself.  Personally I prefer watching guys like Bo Nickel, Jayden Eierman, J'den Cox, David Taylor, Ben Askren, etc. Technicians that score and do it in creative ways.  

We've moved a few times over the years due to my job.  In addition to NC and SC we lived in Illinois for one year.  We were lucky enough to train with some really great coaches.  Eierman, Purler, Miron, McNamara, Jordan, Strobel, and many others.  All great coaches and each has their own style they teach and Chance picked up a lot from each of them.  I really can't recall any of them teaching wrestlers to slap somebody in the head as hard as you can. Now a hit to the head can be a set up for a shot, assuming you do shoot.  But just standing their clubbing away hand fighting is also something that can get you called for a few different penalties (like stalling and flagrant fouls for unnecessary roughness, both of which Schock was called for in the finals).  

So let's be honest about what really happened, in the finals Schock went out there with a game plan to physically dominate the smaller wrestler, use his strength and size advantage, hit him as hard as he can and rough him up.  This is not a strategy we have not seen before.  The ref called it immediately when he hit him in the head two or three times right at the start of the match and it cost him a point.  It was a good call and from there actual wrestling ensued.  They had an amazing scramble that lasted damn near a minute and neither could finish.  Great leg attacks, great counter wrestling, great scrambling, great defense.  It was exciting to watch and I was impressed by Schock's scrambling ability.  Credit both wrestlers for an amazing first period, but the "Marinelli" style ultimately cost Schock a point. 

Regarding braces and injuries, here's a little recap of my son's last year.  After my son's junior year he finally hit puberty and jumped up from 120 to 145 in about 2 months. 

April 2018, his first tournament at 145, 6th match of the day, my son was winning 12-0 and about to TF a multiple time NC state placer.  The kid attempts a lat drop.  My son posted his arm on the side he was dropping to and they rolled over it and his elbow completely dislocated.  Chance didn't get to lift weights or do anything for 2 months other than light cardio, but as soon as he got the elbow brace off, he started wrestling again.  I initially forced him to wear a supporting brace, but he made the decision to take it off because he felt constrained and he didn't want kids to focus on it.  His elbow would click and pop but he just wrestled through it. 

September 2018 he wrestled in the Super32 qualifier in NC.  In his second match he was in on a single and running the pipe, the kid from TN countered it well and sat the corner hard, which caused his head to slam into the mat and he was knocked unconscious for about 10 seconds.  When he woke up he was not allowed to wrestle by the ref and forced to injury default out of the tournament.  He then had to go on concussion protocol for 2 weeks and could not wrestle.  When he came back he never wore a special head gear or anything else.  He didn't want kids to focus on it.  Just came back and wrestled. 

October 2018 he went up to VA and wrestled in the I64 Challenge at 138.  He made it to the semis and was wrestling well.  In the semis against a GA 7A State Champ, the kid shot a low single on him in the first period and hyperextended Chance's knee.  He finished the match but could not really move.  He had to injury default his next match that would have put him into the placement rounds because he couldn't move on it.  The next day his knee felt slightly better and he bumped up to 145 and wrestled for his club team because they needed him.  He went 2-2 with limited mobility and never wore a brace. He just wrestled through it. 

His shoulder issue started showing up his senior year, probably because of his quick growth and still developing body, and also because he wrestled some big tough kids in practice like Manning, Leaphart, Frazier, and Clark.  He told me it mostly would come out when he down blocks or in front head locks when the kid pulled his elbow.  So when Schock hit that bar straight over the top, I believe my son when he says it came out.  The bottom line in your post is the implication that he faked an injury and Schock was "robbed" of a title.  To that I have to tell you to grow up and get over it.  Chance has wrestled a long time, overcame a ton of injuries, and he earned that title. 

All too often parents, coaches, or kids focus on a sole objective.  Winning a tournament or winning a state title when it really should be about more than that.  Being humble, being a competitor, showing respect to your opponents, win or lose, learning to deal with the ups and downs of life, learning from your losses, overcoming adversity, and keep moving forward and improving.  But most of all, celebrating the journey and enjoying all the moments along the way.  When my son was in the 3rd period of the finals of the state tournament, somehow I reflected on that journey, and prepared myself for whatever the outcome.  He had a great career even if he lost and I was prepared either way to celebrate his journey.  That one match wouldn't have changed it either way. 

So let me close by saying congrats to Thomas Schock on a great career and wishing him the best in college or wherever he goes.  It was a great finals match and I'm glad we had a tough competitor and a close match to end my son's career.  Congrats also to the other senior wrestlers, parents, and long time coaches on their personal journeys as well.  Celebrate and enjoy the journey, whether you won or lost that last match. 

Carl K   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Rxtiger said:

Chance was without a doubt one of my favorite guys to watch wrestle this year.  He was a true 145 and is a technician. 

Kid earned the state title and was one of only two kids to get a win over Team NC.  

The point of this thread is how to improve wrestling in SC.  How we improve is to get more kids like Chance K.   Learn the sport, be a technician and maximize your strength.   

Winning is very important, but as we build the sport in SC we need more kids wrestling and kids will wrestle because it is fun.    It has to be a balance     A kid should never laugh as he is getting pinned. He needs to be mad and use it to get better.   But nothing makes me prouder as a dad than watching my kid laugh with his teammates, encouraging the teammate that just lost or even talking to the kid he just wrestled.

Wrestling is the toughest, most humbling sport in the world.  If we take all the fun out of it, why would any kid want to do it?

 

Thanks a lot and good post.  While I would love to take credit for my son in a win over Team NC, he did lose that match 8-6, but he gave it his best going 152 while weighing 148 and that was good enough for me.  Manning won at 160, beating a tough NC kid he had previously lost to in his first tournament of the season.  Great win for him.  Then Tuna won at 170 in a dominating win.  Tuna is a stud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Yankee
7 hours ago, CarlK said:

I'll play along and we can get into the Brands style vs the Sanderson style vs the Eierman style vs the John Smith style all day long.  I watch a lot of college wrestling and personally, I prefer the guys that go out and wrestle technically, create fast paced action, and continuously score points. At the end of the day scoring points is what it's all about.  Marinelli's style is not suited for everyone, and I personally find it boring to watch.  BTW - If you think Marinelli has never been hit with a penalty or a warning for slapping people in the head or face your kidding yourself.  Personally I prefer watching guys like Bo Nickel, Jayden Eierman, J'den Cox, David Taylor, Ben Askren, etc. Technicians that score and do it in creative ways.  

We've moved a few times over the years due to my job.  In addition to NC and SC we lived in Illinois for one year.  We were lucky enough to train with some really great coaches.  Eierman, Purler, Miron, McNamara, Jordan, Strobel, and many others.  All great coaches and each has their own style they teach and Chance picked up a lot from each of them.  I really can't recall any of them teaching wrestlers to slap somebody in the head as hard as you can. Now a hit to the head can be a set up for a shot, assuming you do shoot.  But just standing their clubbing away hand fighting is also something that can get you called for a few different penalties (like stalling and flagrant fouls for unnecessary roughness, both of which Schock was called for in the finals).  

So let's be honest about what really happened, in the finals Schock went out there with a game plan to physically dominate the smaller wrestler, use his strength and size advantage, hit him as hard as he can and rough him up.  This is not a strategy we have not seen before.  The ref called it immediately when he hit him in the head two or three times right at the start of the match and it cost him a point.  It was a good call and from there actual wrestling ensued.  They had an amazing scramble that lasted damn near a minute and neither could finish.  Great leg attacks, great counter wrestling, great scrambling, great defense.  It was exciting to watch and I was impressed by Schock's scrambling ability.  Credit both wrestlers for an amazing first period, but the "Marinelli" style ultimately cost Schock a point. 

Regarding braces and injuries, here's a little recap of my son's last year.  After my son's junior year he finally hit puberty and jumped up from 120 to 145 in about 2 months. 

April 2018, his first tournament at 145, 6th match of the day, my son was winning 12-0 and about to TF a multiple time NC state placer.  The kid attempts a lat drop.  My son posted his arm on the side he was dropping to and they rolled over it and his elbow completely dislocated.  Chance didn't get to lift weights or do anything for 2 months other than light cardio, but as soon as he got the elbow brace off, he started wrestling again.  I initially forced him to wear a supporting brace, but he made the decision to take it off because he felt constrained and he didn't want kids to focus on it.  His elbow would click and pop but he just wrestled through it. 

September 2018 he wrestled in the Super32 qualifier in NC.  In his second match he was in on a single and running the pipe, the kid from TN countered it well and sat the corner hard, which caused his head to slam into the mat and he was knocked unconscious for about 10 seconds.  When he woke up he was not allowed to wrestle by the ref and forced to injury default out of the tournament.  He then had to go on concussion protocol for 2 weeks and could not wrestle.  When he came back he never wore a special head gear or anything else.  He didn't want kids to focus on it.  Just came back and wrestled. 

October 2018 he went up to VA and wrestled in the I64 Challenge at 138.  He made it to the semis and was wrestling well.  In the semis against a GA 7A State Champ, the kid shot a low single on him in the first period and hyperextended Chance's knee.  He finished the match but could not really move.  He had to injury default his next match that would have put him into the placement rounds because he couldn't move on it.  The next day his knee felt slightly better and he bumped up to 145 and wrestled for his club team because they needed him.  He went 2-2 with limited mobility and never wore a brace. He just wrestled through it. 

His shoulder issue started showing up his senior year, probably because of his quick growth and still developing body, and also because he wrestled some big tough kids in practice like Manning, Leaphart, Frazier, and Clark.  He told me it mostly would come out when he down blocks or in front head locks when the kid pulled his elbow.  So when Schock hit that bar straight over the top, I believe my son when he says it came out.  The bottom line in your post is the implication that he faked an injury and Schock was "robbed" of a title.  To that I have to tell you to grow up and get over it.  Chance has wrestled a long time, overcame a ton of injuries, and he earned that title. 

All too often parents, coaches, or kids focus on a sole objective.  Winning a tournament or winning a state title when it really should be about more than that.  Being humble, being a competitor, showing respect to your opponents, win or lose, learning to deal with the ups and downs of life, learning from your losses, overcoming adversity, and keep moving forward and improving.  But most of all, celebrating the journey and enjoying all the moments along the way.  When my son was in the 3rd period of the finals of the state tournament, somehow I reflected on that journey, and prepared myself for whatever the outcome.  He had a great career even if he lost and I was prepared either way to celebrate his journey.  That one match wouldn't have changed it either way. 

So let me close by saying congrats to Thomas Schock on a great career and wishing him the best in college or wherever he goes.  It was a great finals match and I'm glad we had a tough competitor and a close match to end my son's career.  Congrats also to the other senior wrestlers, parents, and long time coaches on their personal journeys as well.  Celebrate and enjoy the journey, whether you won or lost that last match. 

Carl K   

17 hours ago, CarlK said:

if you are saying that people like David Taylor and Bo Nikal and Cox don't club the crap out of people your wrong. A hard club to the head is part of good technique. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that some people on here forget that deep down all of these high school wrestlers are still just kids. Personally, I didn't really grow up and become a man until I was actually a man. Many of these guys look like men physically, act like men on the mat, yet they are still kids. Depending on their mental and physical state, and their personal experience with injuries and overcoming pain, they are still at times going to react like kids. Sometimes something gets tweaked in a match, and they seriously think that they are really hurt (sometimes they are), and they react as though they are really hurt. With the current rules, we stop the match, check things out, and carry on (or not) by the rules. I can't tell you how many times I've coached a kid that thought he was seriously hurt, got checked out quickly by a trainer, assured the wrestler that everything was fine, and they were ok, before they really embraced the idea that they were ok. If we were working with adults, these things wouldn't happen nearly as often. That is why you don't see this issue as often in college (although one doesn't have to look very hard i.e. NFL players, in order to see that some unethical stuff will always happen). As long as we're dealing with kids, I'm going to always be on the side of giving the kids the benefit of the doubt in cases like this. 

I really don't get the other side of this issue. We're talking about kids here, and kids don't deal with things the same way that men should be expected to. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×