Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
TheMasonWay

5A State Qualifiers

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Only_Avg said:

If I work on a committee with Koz and Maholtz my wife will demand a divorce. She's more anti-Eastside than Eaglehater 001 - 198. That's why I love her so!

for the record - its Koz she hates right - Im simply guilty by association????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Sbutler said:

If you had ONE chance to Sell SC HS wrestling to someone, do you take them to the Dual Championship or to the State Tournament, I think the answer to that is pretty easy.

Dual matches are great and can be exciting, especially rivalries etc.  Of course they have their place and are an important part of the sport, but I can't buy into this idea that they are better indicator of team or coach

If by "one chance to sell someone on SC HS wrestling", do you mean you are taking someone that knows absolutely nothing about the sport, I would think the Dual championship would be a much more fun environment.  All of the action is on one mat, there is likely a contrast in styles/moves between 2 teams, forced to choose between one or the other, etc.  The duals, if built up properly, I think will always be a more fun, inclusive product.  If we are trying to sell wrestling to the people that already know and love the sport, then yes they will likely gravitate towards the individual tournament, but there are so many moving parts to keep up with there I don't think the average person is going to gravitate towards that.  If we are going to grow our sport, we have to get more people interested in the easiest fashion, which is putting the action on 1 mat between 2 teams.  Duals are much more palatable because they take roughly the same amount of time.  Our state tournament is an 8-man bracket that takes 2 days to wrestle.

There are a lot of arguments to what indicates a superior coach.  We had a good thread before the last purge about it, but recruitment of a roster and talent development are both important.  Because I am at a school that has not had much success since the early 2000s (1 state champion in school history), I am on the outside looking in on both kinds of success.  My goal is to field all 14 weights, and if I am lucky be competitive in them, so that we can have team success.  If we have enough people in the room, competing at a high level, then that should transfer to individual success this weekend.  There are multiple ways to attack this problem (focus on building the roster first, or focus on achieving individual success to recruit kids that think they can be the next guy). 

Duals gives more options to get more kids involved in the sport.  We get 16 dates a season, and the bulk of that is always going to be dual meets.  If most of the matches we wrestle are dual meets, it makes sense that our state title be determined by dual meets as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, suntzu189 said:

If by "one chance to sell someone on SC HS wrestling", do you mean you are taking someone that knows absolutely nothing about the sport, I would think the Dual championship would be a much more fun environment. 

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Again the use of strategic non wrestling that takes place in allot of the matches in the dual playoffs, I don't think that would suck in a newcomer. Along the lines of the same reason why Wrestling was almost out of the Olympics, and new rules had to be created to promote more action/scoring, to make it more appealing to the non core audience!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Sbutler said:

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Again the use of strategic non wrestling that takes place in allot of the matches in the dual playoffs, I don't think that would suck in a newcomer. Along the lines of the same reason why Wrestling was almost out of the Olympics, and new rules had to be created to promote more action/scoring, to make it more appealing to the non core audience!

We have to stop comparing SC wrestling to NCAAs, Big 10, and the Olympics.  Would shifting which style of tournament awards are SCHSL state champion improve the quality of our wrestling or get more kids to participate?  I know the SCWCA has talked about the idea of taking the duals back and hosting a friday/saturday event so that we could raise more funds to cover North-South/pay for our clinician at the Clinic each year.  That would also make the duals a bigger event, even if it was just the Final 4 on a Friday night, championships on saturday (maybe even place out to 4th?)  The more people we can get watching wrestling, the more likely we are to see growth.  The individual tournament does provide WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more schools the opportunity to be represented, but overall people are not making that trip to Anderson without a direct relative who has a chance at the finals.  Everyone is more interested in the duals, I get texts/tweets from people asking about updates during the dual finals every year.  I have never had anyone ask me how a specific wrestler has done in their bracket at individuals, but I've only been involved in coaching for the past 10 years.  Maybe you have to get to the second decade before you see more people interested in how the individual tournament is going.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dual playoffs are extremely exciting and provide a format most people understand.  Example:  If we win on Saturday we are in the quarter finals, then semis, then finals.  It's awesome because students who have no clue about wrestling can still congratulate your team on advancing to the next round.  Even if it's not the same build up other sports get, it still has a build up.  

 

Individuals are great for true wrestling fans.  I can't wait to watch some of the match ups at state.  It doesn't matter which school is represented, I'm looking forward to some quality wrestling.  I think individuals does represent an entire team even if only a few qualify.  You are only as good as your drill partner, and our best kids are pushed and encouraged daily by the other 50-60 kids in the room.  

 

 As for which one crowns the real state champions.......I would agree with the people saying both.  Obviously I hope we win this weekend.  If we don't, I would hope whatever team does celebrates as much as we did.  It's not an easy thing to accomplish and it deserves to be celebrated.  Winning a state individual tournament is hard.  At the end of the day, it's just another opportunity for high school students to show their skills at a culminating event.  I would hate to see someone try and cheapen that.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Dmaholtz said:

for the record - its Koz she hates right - Im simply guilty by association????

Once an eagle, always an eagle. Some things can't be undone. She would have found a way to hate you at Dutch Fork, but she probably could have stomached (see what I did there?) you just fine if you had stayed at Dorman. Once you went to Eastside there was no chance.

For the record, it probably isn't personal towards Koz either. I like both of yall just fine as long as I remember that you both aren't really "from Eastside" and you guys just happen to work there.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like both the duals and the individuals as well. I haven't yet been involved with a team that wasn't a part of the playoffs, however I see a huge problem with keeping a full team primed and ready to go if you miss the playoffs, as you then have at least two full weeks without any competition gearing up for the individual tournament. I think that our postseason has a bad schedule. What I would like to see is something like this:

1st Saturday: first two rounds of playoffs

Next Tuesday-ish: 3rd round playoffs

2nd Friday/saturday: individual upper & Lower state

Next Tuesday-ish: team upper/lower state

3rd Friday/Saturday: Individual state championships

4th Friday/Saturday: Duals state championships

It's the same amount of time used as before, however ... we give more build-up time between playoff matches, and those teams that go all the way through the playoffs have more time to recover from tough matches (less need to forfeit out once a victory is clinched), and we get those teams that aren't a part of the playoff picture an easier time to stay "in wrestling season mode" for their individual performances.

I know that this system isn't perfect, and has some serious flaws. However, I think that it's a better schedule than we use right now. Personally, I'm impressed with how well those schools that only have one or two kids good enough to qualify for state, and no playoffs experience are able to keep their teams in it at the end of the year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Only_Avg said:

I like both the duals and the individuals as well. I haven't yet been involved with a team that wasn't a part of the playoffs, however I see a huge problem with keeping a full team primed and ready to go if you miss the playoffs, as you then have at least two full weeks without any competition gearing up for the individual tournament. I think that our postseason has a bad schedule. What I would like to see is something like this:

1st Saturday: first two rounds of playoffs

Next Tuesday-ish: 3rd round playoffs

2nd Friday/saturday: individual upper & Lower state

Next Tuesday-ish: team upper/lower state

3rd Friday/Saturday: Individual state championships

4th Friday/Saturday: Duals state championships

It's the same amount of time used as before, however ... we give more build-up time between playoff matches, and those teams that go all the way through the playoffs have more time to recover from tough matches (less need to forfeit out once a victory is clinched), and we get those teams that aren't a part of the playoff picture an easier time to stay "in wrestling season mode" for their individual performances.

I know that this system isn't perfect, and has some serious flaws. However, I think that it's a better schedule than we use right now. Personally, I'm impressed with how well those schools that only have one or two kids good enough to qualify for state, and no playoffs experience are able to keep their teams in it at the end of the year.

I believe this has hurt participation at individuals. It's just tough for me to understand, that barring injury, why every team isn't taking a full roster to Lower/Upper State. Taking the opportunity to give some kids some extra matches and exposure to that environment would only benefit the kid and team for next year. It definitely appears that  some programs are indifferent whether a wrestler continues on to Individuals or not. Again I don't think that is good for the growth and quality of wrestling. 

If they went back to recognizing the Individual Tournament Team along with Duals, like so many other states do, would that change that problem, I believe it would 100%. It makes no sense not to officially recognize both.

 

And to Suntzu189 about less people making the trip this weekend. I think a big part of that is hosting the tournament in the most unideal location possible. How it has gone on this long without a more centralized location, Ill never understand. I would 100% guarantee that if this event was in Columbia you would have better attendance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Only_Avg said:

I like both the duals and the individuals as well. I haven't yet been involved with a team that wasn't a part of the playoffs, however I see a huge problem with keeping a full team primed and ready to go if you miss the playoffs, as you then have at least two full weeks without any competition gearing up for the individual tournament. I think that our postseason has a bad schedule. What I would like to see is something like this:

1st Saturday: first two rounds of playoffs

Next Tuesday-ish: 3rd round playoffs

2nd Friday/saturday: individual upper & Lower state

Next Tuesday-ish: team upper/lower state

3rd Friday/Saturday: Individual state championships

4th Friday/Saturday: Duals state championships

It's the same amount of time used as before, however ... we give more build-up time between playoff matches, and those teams that go all the way through the playoffs have more time to recover from tough matches (less need to forfeit out once a victory is clinched), and we get those teams that aren't a part of the playoff picture an easier time to stay "in wrestling season mode" for their individual performances.

I know that this system isn't perfect, and has some serious flaws. However, I think that it's a better schedule than we use right now. Personally, I'm impressed with how well those schools that only have one or two kids good enough to qualify for state, and no playoffs experience are able to keep their teams in it at the end of the year.

Maybe I'm interpreting this poorly but this paints the picture that the individual portion of the postseason is, for lack of a better term, the "add-on" and that is for sure not something I'd want to impress upon my kids. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the current schedule makes it feel like an ad-on. This schedule is really close to what we had in this state through 1998. I thought that it worked well then for the most part. The biggest issue then was that playoff matches were on Wednesday nights, and that only allowed for one day to recuperate and practice before the beginning of the individual tournament. Tuesday would give Sunday and Monday after an individual tournament to get ready for a dual match, and then Wednesday and Thursday to get ready for individuals. The big problem would probably be basketball, but I don't know. The issue that I think is hurting lesser teams right now is you have some down time just before playoffs, then a full week of playoffs (which means nothing but practice for non-playoff teams), then just about another full week before individuals begin. It's really hard to keep a kid who has a slim shot of qualifying for state focused for over two straight weeks without any true competition. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrestling simply  is an Individual Sport First, with a team element Second. To try and diminish in any form, strip away the importance of individual success in this sport is a problem. It all starts there and everything in the sport builds off that.  Again, pretty easy and don't see any downside to officially recognizing both. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have any problem with recognizing both. I don't think that we're really on opposite sides of this issue. I love the team aspect of wrestling, but I love it within the total individual accountability, and individual performance involved. I think that having the individual tournaments during the playoffs keeps the pressure and build-up going without the dead time that I think that our current system creates for those teams that aren't in the playoffs. Right now, I see a big advantage for those teams that make it at least to the upper/lower state team duals match. What I shared gives a slight advantage to those teams not in the playoffs. If we're trying to build the sport, and get more teams to the upper levels, we don't need to set those teams that aren't at the upper echelons (this word means levels Maholtz) at a disadvantage. I think that the biggest problem that we have right now is finding ways for the weakest teams amongst us to grow. One of our biggest difficulties is that the sport listens more to those coaches that are having success, and we don't really tend to care about the problems facing Podunk High (Evan Moxie's alma mater)  when we only see one of their wrestlers in the state tournament in odd numbered years, and he goes two and out anyways.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SButler having competed here during the 80's when the great Rock Thrill teams battled it out with the great 'Ville teams I can tell you it still was not a good indicator. Irmo was the monkey wrench. They were a perennial power, just without a feeder system like the other two, that qualified quite a few individuals, placed a number of guys, and always finished third or better. That was the problem. Depending on year they were either upper state (for the most part) or lower state. Because of that, one of those other teams would not qualify quite as many guys as they should have or would have had a seeding disadvantage at states while the other team would qualify more kids and have their kids in a better seeding position. Individuals were never a level playing field.

A great many number of posters have made a better argument than me on why the duals are a better indicator of team champion. If those arguments haven't swayed you, then there is no hope for you. And judging by the amount of non-relatives attending the duals I would say that that format gets students from the  participating schools more involved than individuals; not to mention, the venue for individuals is not conducive for getting non-relatives interested in the sport.

As for one classification, it has been a dream of wrestling fans in this state for many years, but sadly will never happen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CarolinaHawkeyeFan said:

A great many number of posters have made a better argument than me on why the duals are a better indicator of team champion. If those arguments haven't swayed you, then there is no hope for you. And judging by the amount of non-relatives attending the duals I would say that that format gets students from the  participating schools more involved than individuals; not to mention, the venue for individuals is not conducive for getting non-relatives interested in the sport.

The student section that River Bluff had for the Lower State Finals was great.  We will never have that many kids show up to support at an individual tournament, likely not even with a kid that is "guaranteed" to make the finals.

Side note: I am so happy not one person has tried to spell it "duels" in this conversation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One could argue that a dual match is a duel between two teams 😀, but I know what you mean. Perhaps there's hope for the state of wrestling in this state afterall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Sbutler said:

Wrestling simply  is an Individual Sport First, with a team element Second. To try and diminish in any form, strip away the importance of individual success in this sport is a problem. It all starts there and everything in the sport builds off that.  Again, pretty easy and don't see any downside to officially recognizing both. 

I do not think anyone is trying to diminish the individual tournament, but your thesis is that the individual tournament should decide the recognized team champion. In the current format, with team champs made official by SCHSL and individual team unofficial, I cannot agree with that.

I think one poster has it correct in saying that die-hard wrestling fans love the individual format, but that doesn't make it an indicator of valid "TEAM" success. Team success is valid only when the entire team pulls together in a common goal. Certainly wrestling is an individual sport, but when 14 people work together to win matches, score bonus, or diminish the damage of a loss it certainly is a team sport. Very rarely does any team qualify 14 individuals to Anderson, and that is much less-likely with the continued growth and parity we are seeing in SC - and that is a good thing.

The average fan would much rather watch a two hour match with drama and team camaraderie rather than sit in a hot, cramped facility in the corner of the upper state for two days. Maybe they would enjoy just watching the finals, but not at the current venue. 

Why isn't it held in Columbia? Because the SCHSL is too cheap to rent out a venue of adequate size.

When the dual playoff format was first adopted in the 90's, several different formats were tried. The individual tournament was prior to duals, but I believe coaches did not like it as they were worried kids would pick-up a knock before duals and also kids that weren't qualified for individuals had to wait longer to start a spring sport. Then they changed the duals to before individuals and held a dual tournament on Friday and Saturday. The problem with that was there often wasn't much rest time before the finals. Teams that made the finals wrestled 3 or 4 matches prior to the finals, and if one semifinal wasn't as competitive as the other, one finalist had more rest time. This happened in 1999. The current format seems to me pretty good. Duals are done over one week, and kids without a stake in the individual tournament can leave for a spring sport if they so choose. Believe it or not, that option helps with recruiting when attracting soccer and baseball players to wrestling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Die hard or Casual fans like exciting, quality wrestling at any level.  The Dual format rarely provides that consistently on multiple levels. #1 Again, there are more slow , painful to watch matches then there are quality intense matches. There is a significant amount of stall calls and multiple stall DQ’s . #2 Go check and tell me how many Duals were close that didn’t involve the winning team forfeiting the last 2-3 matches. I’m sure the data is there, how many Stall DQ’s does the State Tournament have vs Duals. How many stall penalty points awarded at the State Tournament vs the Duals. I’m pretty positive I know that the results will be pretty one sided, but would have no problem acknowledging if the data proved me wrong. 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and if you prefer dusls that’s great, but just continuing to say 14 kids wrestling is a better indicator of a team in wrestling , without providing anything substantial other then your opinion to validate it , makes it a mute point. 

 

Id say, let’s look at Ohio, PA, New York, NJ high schools. Do they recognize the traditional team champion? If they do, then they have it all wrong?

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

they recognize both traditional and dual champs in Ohio and PA for sure. I understand the point your making but I think the point people are saying is 14 solid wrestlers working together shows more of a complete program then a team with 4 studs that win their weight classes and 10 who couldn't defend themselves. People are entitled to feel both ways, I think its safe to say the SCHSL will only ever recognize one champ, and for now thats thru the duals format. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sbutler said:

Id say, let’s look at Ohio, PA, New York, NJ high schools. Do they recognize the traditional team champion? If they do, then they have it all wrong?

All of those states are light years ahead of where we are as a state in terms of the product on the mat from top to bottom.  What about Georgia or NC?  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NJ recognizes the dual champion based on different group levels (like our A - AA - AAA groupings). Then, after the duals/playoffs are over they wrestle a single (all classifications combined) individual tournament. Getting a single State champion, or even a single state tournament qualifier on your team is considered a big deal for most NJ high school wrestling teams.

I also think that your stalling point may not be as strong as you feel that it is. However, even if you are absolutely correct, if we as a state called stalling more consistently it would stop very quickly. In a dual match or individual tournament getting DQ'd for stalling is equal to getting pinned. There's only three reasons why a wrestler will stall in a match. He's scared to wrestle his opponent, he's bone tired, or he thinks he won't get called on it enough to get DQ'd. None of those reasons change depending on whether it's a dual or individual match. The last one depends entirely on the official.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sbutler said:

Id say, let’s look at Ohio, PA, New York, NJ high schools. Do they recognize the traditional team champion? If they do, then they have it all wrong?

 

If they don't does that make you wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of my data may be wrong, but I feel pretty confident that none of this has changed recently:

Minnesota recognizes a duals tournament champion

Washington determines the state champion through the individual tournament.

Kentucky has both, but from what I've heard a much bigger deal is made out of the individual tournament champion.

Tennessee has both.

Oklahoma has a duals team champion

Virginia has only individual champion (used to have duals for some period of time)

NJ has groups (based on size, kinda) for duals, and a single classification individual tournament (I'm way more familiar with NJ than I ever wanted to be)

Those are the only ones that I'm familiar with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GA recognizes both. If I had to speculate, I’d gather  that more states either recognize both or only individuals vs states that only recognize duals. 

 

And im fully aware of the team point penalty with a stalling DQ, but I witnessed it multiple times in the playoff, along with a significant amount of penalty points. And that was just in a couple of the matches. The 5A finals would be a good example. 

At any length, I think I’ve said about all I can on the subject. For the sake of not perpetuating endless debate , I will move on from the subject. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Sbutler said:

Die hard or Casual fans like exciting, quality wrestling at any level.  The Dual format rarely provides that consistently on multiple levels. #1 Again, there are more slow , painful to watch matches then there are quality intense matches. There is a significant amount of stall calls and multiple stall DQ’s . #2 Go check and tell me how many Duals were close that didn’t involve the winning team forfeiting the last 2-3 matches. I’m sure the data is there, how many Stall DQ’s does the State Tournament have vs Duals. How many stall penalty points awarded at the State Tournament vs the Duals. I’m pretty positive I know that the results will be pretty one sided, but would have no problem acknowledging if the data proved me wrong. 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and if you prefer dusls that’s great, but just continuing to say 14 kids wrestling is a better indicator of a team in wrestling , without providing anything substantial other then your opinion to validate it , makes it a mute point. 

 

Id say, let’s look at Ohio, PA, New York, NJ high schools. Do they recognize the traditional team champion? If they do, then they have it all wrong?

 

 

 

 

I know you are trying to let the topic ie, but I feel compelled to answer you hear. Yes, many of the dual finals are one-sided with forfeits (which I despise) when one team has an indomitable mathematical advantage, but that is more the fault of keeping an upper/lower state system rather than cross-bracketing. Plenty of close (or at least closer) compelling match-ups in the semis.

And every so often we get a very exciting, compelling final. FD v RH was a fun match to watch for a neutral. And who can forget the Lex v Hill crest final years ago that was decided by criteria.

Individuals provide some exciting matches,  but there are also some blow-outs and snoozers as well. Using your constant comparison to the NCAA, the finals are sometimes a letdown where the quarters and semis are usually very exciting.

The bigger point is the average or newer fan can get behind a true team competition as that is what they are used to. proponents of the NCAA Duals use this same argument. Just look at some of the crowds you get for the dual finals. And with the current venue in play for individuals you will never be able to draw very many fans  - you can't even fit all the wrestlers' families in there comfortably. And with multiple final matches happening at the same time it is hard for me, a die-hard fan, to focus on one match enough to really get into it. The dual format is more attractive. One mat, two teams, and fans from both schools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×